by the sioux warrior, on alt.religion.jehovahs-witn :.
tallyman this shows how stupid you are.
that has been the rule for a long time.
Excuse me, Sioux Warrier... but I do know of someone who was df'd for taking a blood transfusion after a severe loss of blood in a car accident over 30 years ago. His df'd father OK'd it.
The quirk to this situation was?....he hadn't even been associating at the hall for 6 years before the accident, and had never once had a shepherding call before either.
Where does this "its never been a df'able thing" come from?
Stephanus...move over..I feel sick too!!!!
Had Enough
hello everyone,.
if your jehovah's witness relatves came to you and said..... "praise jah, there has been 'new light" and we can associate with you again!".....
what would you say or do?
Hi Zazuwitts:
On the first page of this topic, you asked if anyone had the WT81, on shunning DF'd and DA'd ones.
I have the 2 articles in the W81, 9/15, if you would like me to post them (they total 8 pages}. The first is on "DF'ing and DA'ing-how to view it, and the second is "If a Relative is DF'd".
If you want them, I can post them...just let me know here.
As I've said on other posts, shunning has always been a sorespot with me and I would love to see a change. It would return a measure of harmony in my family between my da'd son and his sister who is devastated by this situation and with other family members too.
I've wondered the same thing about their statement on their site and posted that question here and other threads too on how can they expect to get away with such an outright lie. I would like to know too how to make them own up to it, publicly or change it.
Had Enough
can you spot the wt double speak in the two faq's?.
or anyone else like to comment?
(not open to fred, coz we've heard it all before!).
Hi VeniceIT:
So WTS "has to put that there for the public", do they. Don't they realize the public is getting more educated than ever before by sites like this?
And the curious JWs who are just coming here to see what's going on are getting an eyefull too, since they don't know what's going on right under their noses.
Maybe the day will come when it all blows up in the GB's face.
Had Enough
can you spot the wt double speak in the two faq's?.
or anyone else like to comment?
(not open to fred, coz we've heard it all before!).
Hi qwerty:
This statement that former members and family members are not shunned absolutely baffles me too! I've mentioned this in a couple of my recent posts on the subject. How can they expect to get away with that kind of an outright lie with so many non-JWs becoming aware of the real 'truth'???
Perhaps Thirdson has hit the nail on the head with his quotation from the Insight book:
Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth... Insight on the Scriptures(it-2-E) 1988
Along with that, HesterPryne found and quoted in her post on "Questions for Shunned Persons" in the Beliefs and Doctrines" topics, 2 WT articles showing further what the WTS says about lying and when its OK.
Here is what the WTS says for those of us who have forgotten this or never knew it:
Watchtower 1956
"The enemies [here identified as those who resist or persecute Jehovah's Witnesses] did not deserve to learn the truth to the hurt or endangerment of Jehovah's servants. In wartime it is proper to misdirect the wolfish enemy. .. It is proper to cover over our arrangements for the work that God commands us to do. If the wolfish foes draw wrong conclusions from our maneuvers to outwit them, no harm has been done to them by the harmless sheep, innocent in their motives as doves." {WT Feb 1 1956 80/86}
And then if we don't agree with their strategy, we are reminded to not criticize the 'mother org,' in this next article in the 1957 Watchtower.
"Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers.. Showing respect for Jehovah's organization really resolves itself down to our attitude toward God's visible channel and the trust that we place in our proved, faithful brothers. If we have become thoroughly convinced that this is Jehovah's organization, that he is guiding and directing his people, then we shall not be unsettled by anything that happens.If something comes up that we do not understand we will wait patiently until it is made thoroughly clear to us. If we feel sure something is wrong we will 'keep the commandment' of our Father and take whatever theocratic steps are open to us and then wait on Jehovah. We will not 'forsake our mother's teaching' by immediately beginning to criticize and find fault. We will realize that Jehovah knows what is going on in his organization, and if he is willing to permit it, who are we to insist it should be different? If we really have faith, we will know that if it is wrong he will straighten it out eventually, and we are far safer inside his organization even with these minor difficulties than we would be on the outside where only chaos and destruction await us..[We must] show our respect for Jehovah's organization, for she is our mother and the beloved wife of our heavenly Father, Jehovah God..
A Witness of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry." {WT May 1 1957 284-5}
I'm glad to have come across this info on the WTS official website and the quotations found by Thirdson and HesterPryne. The statements seem to sum up the "strategy" quite clearly.
Had Enough (of doublespeak and lies, trying hard to remember the good)
i think a lot of space is wasted in arguments that get personal.
we are a varied bunch and i think that variety is good.
i dont want to discourage anyone from posting but personal attacks ( justified or not) dont achieve anything.
Hi bajarama:
btw:I don't think you "haven't got alot of bright things to add to the db", as you put it. I get a kick out of many of your comments.
You may like the smart-ass comments though and that's fine.
I don't like the results of enforced censorship either, but self-censorship as hippikon says, does have its merits. Don't get me wrong here. I don't want to see this turn into a gradeschool or Kingdom hall mentality either. I do like reading a good barb or giving them too, but in fun and not at the expense of the other person.
When it becomes downright vicious and nasty, it becomes stupid and then tiresome and not funny to many, perhaps not to all. To read several people's comments though, it seemed like the many of posters don't like when it gets out of hand and downright nasty.
I never heard my father talk that way to people or about them, and he was a very funny man, could 'tell it like it is', could take being corrected if his opinion was wrong and was loved by many, many people.
Good grief, I hope I don't sound 'preachy'...really, its just MHO.
Had Enough
my boyfriend and i live together and have been for about 3 years.. he wants me to convert, after research i will not.
(i was raised bapstist) he hasnt went to the hall in two weeks, last nite he went because a "elder" called him, why did they have him in a meeting till.
11 at nite, he came home and told me he confessed and he is in trouble.
humble:
I understand you are probably zealous in your effort to try to help someone see the error of their ways.
One thing I vividly remember from the Ministry School lessons, was that when we are trying to convince someone of the Bible's 'better way of doing something' we should be tactful, and acknowledge the problem in a kind and understanding way first. From there, we were to try to show the Bible's answer to the 'problem'. Giving a student talk with a householder gave us sisters lots of practice working on this suggestion.
If you had worded your response in this manner, instead of sounding curt and right to the point, perhaps you wouldn't have 'sounded' so judgemental. You may think you weren't being judgemental, but to open your response with 'you are fornicators' doesn't sound kind, understanding and 'humble' to anyone, and it certainly doesn't make the one you are addressing want to listen to anything else you will have to say no matter how good and right it may be.
You don't have to compromise your principles by wording your answer kindly, and it probably would get a better reception.
Had Enough
i think a lot of space is wasted in arguments that get personal.
we are a varied bunch and i think that variety is good.
i dont want to discourage anyone from posting but personal attacks ( justified or not) dont achieve anything.
outnfree:
You are so right! I came here about 2 months ago and enjoyed just reading people's thoughts, opinions, knowledge, and support for one another. It took me about a month to work up the courage to finally make my first post ever anywhere. The encouragement and help I received overwhelmed me and I feel more at ease now.
But had I just started coming here in the last week or so, I think I would have just given up because of the viciousness I seen recently. I wonder how many who have just started looking in on us have been scared away.
Considering what most of us have come out of and/or been through, a warm, inviting place is needed to take the plunge in self-expression. Many of us have been stifled for so long, it takes awhile to feel comfortable joining in.
So I too hope this place can continue to be what I found when I started here...a place to share knowledge, to encourage depressed or afraid ones, to applaud those deserving, to give or get suggestions and support, to vent ones frustrations, anger etc. but not to vent at someone here by insults and slurs, and a place to laugh and have a giggle.
And I like your wording of:
The board should be a civil place respectful of people who hold divergent viewpoints, though not necessarily respectful of those divergent viewpoints.
And I support your suggestion of:
just restraining ourselves from our first impulse to make a smart-ass or derisive reply (counting to 10 first..
Thanks
Had Enough
i think a lot of space is wasted in arguments that get personal.
we are a varied bunch and i think that variety is good.
i dont want to discourage anyone from posting but personal attacks ( justified or not) dont achieve anything.
Hi hippikon:
Please don't give up! You make us laugh AND you have a good point in your opening comments.
So much is lost when people resort to actual name-calling. I've gotten upset before too when someone tries to uphold the WTS beliefs by making an erroneous statement but there is a huge difference between disagreeing with someone's point, then backing your opinion up with a valid argument, and getting your dander up because someone doesn't agree with you, then just resorting to rude, slanderous, name-calling.
For those of us who are reading a thread because the subject is interesting and informative, it is totally frustrating and distracting from the subject, to have to wade through all the crass putdowns.
Many of us here want to learn more info about the WTS we once put so much faith in and come here to get insight, help, encouragement, a laugh...whatever it takes to get strengthened in our resolve to not let the WTS own us again...and some need help to know how to help their loved ones still trapped inside.
There are so many veterans here who have done their research that are respected who can present their information in a clear and understandable manner, and many who have an eloquent way with words that are healing and encouraging. All those kinds are the posts that gain respect and support.
So I will continue to read those posts of ones who have earned my respect through their presentation of 'make-sense' information. I am learning valuable lessons here and hope we don't have to see more precious time wasted on unproductive arguments.
Had Enough
my boyfriend and i live together and have been for about 3 years.. he wants me to convert, after research i will not.
(i was raised bapstist) he hasnt went to the hall in two weeks, last nite he went because a "elder" called him, why did they have him in a meeting till.
11 at nite, he came home and told me he confessed and he is in trouble.
Hi Camay:
I just want to say I'm so sorry you're in this sad situation.
I know you're looking for answers but I think you've pretty well summed the whole thing up already.
You said:
I cant make him marry me and he will not unless I convert, but I cant convert to something I dont feel comfortable with.
You've already done your research and I know you know you can't force him look at what you've discovered. Perhaps if there is still love and a desire to marry him, could you prepare beliefs you have found wrong and ask him to explain them to you without making him feel like you're trying to change his mind, but rather like you want to understand what he believes.
I found an interesting personal account of someone who was a JW and who wanted to discreetly help his family open their eyes to the wrong teachings without them realizing what he was doing. He feared they (like your boyfriend is doing) would close their minds if they thought he was turning against the JWs.
You can check his story and some of his suggested subjects in this website:
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/exithelp.htm
"How I helped my Family Leave Jehovah's Witnesses"
He also added this at the bottom of his story to click onto:
"more specific follow-up to this article" (entitled, "Case Example of Talking to My Family")
I'm sure you'll find it helpful if you feel you want to help your boyfriend to look into things for himself. Whatever he does, HE is responsible for his own actions. You are not to blame for what he does.
I wish you success and happiness in whatever you do.
Had Enough
hello everyone,.
if your jehovah's witness relatves came to you and said..... "praise jah, there has been 'new light" and we can associate with you again!".....
what would you say or do?
Hi myMichelle:
I understand your disbelief and shock. My non-JW in-laws also cannot fathom in the least how my JW family can shun my da'd son. They have expressed to me exactly what you said:
My family is not perfect, but we always support one another, even if we greatly disagree with that family member.
I have tried to show them why the JWs believe the way they do from the scriptures and they still can't understand it. Bottom line is because it just isn't natural to treat family (and anyone for that matter) like that.
Like I said before...I can't understand how the WTS can outright lie on their website when they say JWs don't shun family members. Have they forgotten their 1981 Watchtower Sept.15 articles? They don't mince any words in making it crystal clear that any family member not under your roof is to be totally shunned unless there's a family matter to take care of...and usually that is translated as a medical "life-threatening emergency" or a funeral.
How sad and how despicable!!!
Had Enough
